... Because Terrorism Should Not Pay

John, at Upturned Earth responds to a post by Hilzoy at Obsidian Wings wherein Hilzoy suggests ways in which the outcome of Scott Roeder's murder of Dr. Tiller does not compromise women's access to appropriate health care, including therapeutic late term abortions. i will leave you to read both posts, but this is how I responded to John at his site:

John, you reference two comparable kinds of violence, that then proceed to reference completely incomparable kinds of remedies.

a) Hilzoy says dilation and extraction (IDX) should not be outlawed because it may be the safest method to protect the mother’s health and life. How is your remedy, repeal ALL restriction requiring humane treatment of animals, comparable?

b) Hilzoy says if you are going to be an Ob/Gyn, someone who specializes in womens reproductive health, you need to be trained in late-term abortion techniques, Why? Because sometimes the fetus dies, and sometimes the mother’s life is at risk. She does not say that a specialist in women’s reproductive health MUST provide abortions. Clearly, her implication is that if the mother’s life is at risk and an emergency is underway, even specialists who oppose abortion must be able to act to save the mother. Your comparison refers to non-specialists with no obvious connection to life-saving techniques or services.

c) Hilzoy again speaks to hospitals providing women’s reproductive health services and the requirement that they be able to act to save a woman’s life. She suggests that religious objections would except if the fetus is dead. You suggest research that in not and won’t be emergency in nature is comparable to that of doctor faced with the death of the woman if he or she doesn’t act.

These are entirely unobjectionable changes to current law, ones that put the life of the mother on parity with the life of the fetus while respecting the idea of viability. I understand you do not accept viability as the standard by which abortion should be judged, but it is the law as it is written.

There are many institutions that do animal research. There is now, what, one doctor in the entire nation who will perform therapeutic late term abortions? This is a question of women’s health, John, and your post is extremely cavalier.

Jake

and John's response:

These are entirely unobjectionable changes to current law …

Umm … no they’re not. They are deeply, deeply radical changes that run directly counter to many Americans’ convictions about conscience protection and the dignity of human life. It’s one thing to defend them on the merits, and quite another to propose them as a brazenly political measure to “make it clear that terrorism doesn’t work


and my response:

John, in what way are they radical changes from existing law? Emergency rooms are required to handle emergencies. Doctors address threats to the life and wellbeing of women. That is the basic thrust of all of Hilzoy’s piece. What part of her remedies are radical changes? Hilzoy does not require those who object to abortions to perform them - she requires that those who call themselves specialists in women’s health be able to act, when necessary, to protect the health of a woman in their care.

You object to her framing, not to her ideas? You would subjugate women’s health to your distaste for the way Hilzoy characterizes her remedies?

Anti-abortionists use “murder” freely, but Hilzoy suggests eminently sensible, legal and appropriate remedies to actually provide for women’s health, using the phrase “make it clear that terrorism doesn’t work” and suddenly women’s health isn’t important?

Answer me this, if you will: if the mother’s life is in immediate and significant danger (and you may describe immediate and significant however you wish) is it okay to perform IDX , or any other abortion technique you might find less objectionable, in order to save her life?

Jake

If John answers, we'll see what he says.

Jake

John answered:

What part of her remedies are radical changes?

Umm … the parts that suggest passing a congressional mandate requiring that all hospitals be ready to provide, and all medical professionals instructed in to perform, late-term abortions, not just in cases where the mother’s life is at stake, but also in those in which it is the child’s or the mother’s health that is the issue.

You object to her framing, not to her ideas? You would subjugate women’s health to your distaste for the way Hilzoy characterizes her remedies?

You’re missing the point - badly. The entire point of hilzoy’s post is to suggest those policies as a way to show that “terrorism doesn’t work”. And I responded by showing up that illogic for what it was. My objection to the policies is rooted in a conviction that people shouldn’t be allowed - much less required - to kill other human beings on grounds as flimsy as these.

… if the mother’s life is in immediate and significant danger (and you may describe immediate and significant however you wish) is it okay to perform IDX , or any other abortion technique you might find less objectionable, in order to save her life?

Yes.

And here is my response:

Passing a mandate that hospitals be able to be hospitals, that specialists in women's health be able to care for women appropriately? Hilzoy goes on to say "There should be religious exemptions, but they should not extend to the treatment of women whose fetus has already died." I think Hilzoy answered your second objection rather pointedly. As for the training, she says this, "Require training in late-term abortion techniques for Ob/Gyn certification. Note that these techniques are also used when the fetus has already died." She doesn't say all providers must provide abortions, she says all providers of women's health must be trained, specifically for cases when the fetus has died and there are no religious objections to be made. Let's talk about the health and quality of life issue. I think that troubles you deeply, that we currently allow such choices to be made up to some point in time. Lets think of another example of where we make such a distinction, but it doesn't seem to create the same tensions in our society. Conjoined twins. Today, we almost always (always? I don't know) work to separate conjoined twins. We do this knowing that the twins, if they remain conjoined, could live long and perhaps even fruitful lives. The choices made in separating conjoined twins sometimes involves the death of one of the twins. Often, we even know which twin will die. Nonetheless, we allow the parents to make a choice involving the death of an already born human being, in order to improve the health and quality of life of the surviving twin. It is the same language, John, the same choice, the same outcomes. Why is making a choice based upon probable health and wellbeing okay in the conjoined twins case and not in the abortion case? If we are consistent in our beliefs, I don't believe we can see a difference. I am glad we agree on your final point. However, just who should perform the necessary late term therapeutic abortion? Someone who only knows c-sections, or someone who knows less invasive techniques, even though that person will not perform abortions under any other circumstance? Jake

More in comments to this post.

Jake